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Join us as we journey down memory lane with Phil Callaghan, a Hall of Fame member of the Ohio High School Baseball Coaches Association, celebrating his incredible 29-year coaching career. We explore the challenges of managing talented players and the changes high school baseball has experienced over the years. You'll also hear Phil's advice on making decisions in the best interest of your student-athletes.
Phil shares stories from his time at three different schools - St. Francis Desales, Dublin Scioto, and Olentangy Orange - as well as how he adapted his coaching style to match the varying talent levels. We delve into the influential role Don Thorpe has played in Ohio high school baseball and beyond, and Phil offers invaluable advice to high school players wanting to play college baseball. Discover the impact of effort on an athlete's success and how young athletes can prepare themselves for life after high school.
Rounding out our conversation, we discuss some fascinating baseball topics, including the skill and approach of two legendary pitcher duos - Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez versus Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson. Phil reveals his choice for the greatest MLB player of all time and which pitcher and position player he would want in his lineup for a must-win game. Don't miss this captivating episode packed with incredible stories, valuable lessons, and a deep appreciation for the game of baseball.
Did you adapt your coaching style at the three different schools?
Speaker 2:Well, like if you, when I talk to kids I coach, they would say, absolutely that I softened. So, like the sales kids like to talk about some crazy times and then the Ciotic kids will say you know this and what have you? Honestly, i don't feel as if there was any adaptation, except for, just like everyone in life, you get a little smarter. You know, when you're young and dumb you do some crazy things, hopefully always in the interest of you, know the best for young people. But you know, i would say it was more about learning and getting a little smarter than it would be, you know, adapting the standards that we believe.
Speaker 1:Every coach would like to have one State Final Four appearance. Imagine taking three different teams throughout their career to the State Final Four. Phil Cowell again next on the Athlete One Podcast.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Athlete One Podcast. Veteran high school baseball coach Ken Carpenter takes you into life's classroom as experienced through sports. Go behind the scenes with athletes and coaches as they share great stories, life lessons and ways to impact others.
Speaker 1:This episode of the Athlete One Podcast is powered by the Netting Professionals, improving programs one facility at a time. The Netting Professionals specialize in the design, fabrication and installation of custom Netting for baseball and softball, including backstops, batting cages, bp turtles, screens, ball carts and more. They also design and install digital graphic wall padding, windscreen, turf, turf protectors, dugout benches and cubbies. They're not limited to just baseball and softball. They also work with football, soccer, lacrosse and golf courses. Contact them today at 844-620-2707 or visit them online at wwwnettingproscom, or check them out on Twitter, instagram, facebook and LinkedIn at Netting Pros for all their latest products and projects. Hello and welcome to the Athlete One Podcast. I'm your host, ken Carpenter. Joining me today is Ohio High School Baseball Coaches of the Association Hall of Fame member, phil Callahan Coach. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you, i'm glad to be here. Well, i ran into you last week at the Olentangie Orange Grove City Regional Final here in Ohio, central Ohio. I have to start off with you did 29 years as a coach. Do you miss it?
Speaker 2:No, no, not at all. As a matter of fact, i've had a great. I guess now five years since, in 2018, i stepped aside at Orange and started watching college baseball and spent four years probably seeing between 25 and 40 college games a year. It was just a great education and kind of taught me all this stuff Guys like us, as high school coaches, don't have any clue about, but just sat out in center field and watched my son play and read a book and it was wonderful.
Speaker 1:Well, you have a son. You're youngest now. He's playing in the State Final Four this weekend for Olentangie Orange. I imagine you've been there several times as a coach. I imagine it's nice to see your son get this opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great opportunity. And my two sons have been joking back and forth. There has been both a Callahan and a Miller on both of Orange's Final Four teams, so they've been joking back and forth and taking pictures out on the regional field. So, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah. I also, of course, got to teach with Tom Marker when he came over and took over and built a great relationship and just love him, so this has been fun to watch for him also.
Speaker 1:Well, after 29 season, you had a record of 633 wins and 223 losses, and that was at three different high schools St Francis to Sales, dublin, sioda and Olentangie Orange. In your experience you've done it as a player and a coach. How hard is it to advance to the Final Four?
Speaker 2:Well, and even probably I'd go back just a little bit further, to when I was at Brookhaven And that would have been in 1977. And of course in those days some people have a hard time remembering but Columbus City League Baseball was the best around And I can remember that year in the district finals it was Brookhaven against West And of course a great Dave Copeland's coach team went on. But making it to the Final Four is just an incredible accomplishment And one that it seemed like hardly ever happened back in the day. It seemed like it was always teams from farther down south. But I would say in the last 20 years of course that has kind of been broken. It's just a great accomplishment. But the one thing in 1979, when I transferred it to Sales, we win a state championship, and so to get to experience and know just what a miracle it is is you know it really makes them in the 29 years coaching you appreciate the opportunity to get there.
Speaker 1:And you know your sons probably don't quite realize it right now, but it's pretty difficult to get there And it's also got to be a really special experience to be able to have that as a lifelong memory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and having you know one one as a player, i would always tell my teams you know we would set goals each year for our team And it was to win the league, win the district and win 20 games. But I would also tell them that state championships are dreams And and that is something that you know you just check off goals one by one And if you get the opportunity to be there you know I was lucky enough to take it to Sales team there, to take a Sioda team there and then to take an orange team there, and just incredible memories.
Speaker 1:Well, that that leads into my my next question. Looking back on it, how much have you seen with the players accepting coaching and how has it changed from what you've seen in the most recent years now?
Speaker 2:Oh, i think it is greatly, greatly changing. And I'm not sure you know. I want to put it on accepting my coaching, because I think for every single one of us, you know, even down to when you and I used to go get breakfast, this game doesn't change. It does modify a little bit. It ebbs and flows up and down And we could talk about some of that Like right now, i don't think I've ever seen pitching better in high school baseball. Yet at the same time I can remember listening to the likes of Vince Chicarell and Dave Koblenz and Dave Ewing talking about, you know, in the 60s and 70s in the city everybody had a guy who threw 90. So I do think that large part of what we're seeing today in high school baseball is sort of along the same lines of what we're seeing in the classroom and education. And I do have a little bit of a concern that that ebb and flow needs to go back to what's in the best interest of kids. And you know, young kids need guidance And I worry that sometimes we're not giving them that guidance in this day and age, and not from my standpoint or your standpoint as an educator, but just from their standpoint as young people, you know, needing to grow and learn and from their mistakes and everything else. So I think it's a little bit of a concern.
Speaker 1:Did you adapt your coaching style at the three different schools?
Speaker 2:Well, like if you, when I talk to kids I coach, they would say absolutely that I softened. So, like the sales, kids like to talk about some crazy times and then the sciota kids will say you know this and what have you? And honestly, i don't feel as if there was any adaptation except for, just like everyone in life, you get a little smarter. You know, when you're young and dumb you do some crazy things, hopefully always in the interest of you, know the best for young people. But you know, i would say it was more about learning and getting a little smarter than it would be, you know, adapting the standards that we believed in.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, if, if you could point to secrets to your success throughout your career, what do you think those would be?
Speaker 2:If I had to point to two things and had to put a thumb on them, the first one would go back to. I was lucky enough at the age of 21 to be named a head coach And, of course, was at the peak of my party and days And I always tell this story this way And I found out that my first team had a Thursday night philosophy where they were going out and enjoying each other's company and making some unhealthy choices. So I got educated by a impact program in Cincinnati, ohio, on the physiological effects of drugs and alcohol on an adolescent and especially an athlete, and I would say that making that a priority to not judge the kids I had in the program but instead just try to get them to train to be the healthiest and best physical, emotional and psychological beings that they could be as athletes I would probably say that would be possibly number 1. Now there's many of them that would tell you. You know they might view it as being done in a crazy way, but all I ever wanted was, you know, kids to peak with their performances And of course, like all of us, part of that might have been that. You know that wasn't exactly my strong suit, so it might have been part of that. But then the second thing I would put a thumb on is just loving each other and doing it as a team. So between the healthy champion choices and then the loving each other and always being a team. So like one of the things that every program I've ever been in you are literally never allowed to say a negative thing about a teammate. Now, of course, you hear all the time and I was one of the ones saying it. Hey, they know, i love them. That's why I joke them like this, but a negative comment never does anything to serve to the positive. Okay, so like one of the ones and again, i was horrible at this and this is why I made it a point One of my favorite ones is when a guy would line out I would say, hey, you can't hit it any harder than that. Of course I can, but you can't And you know it's just a cutting comment that does not help anything. So that was one of the things that we did towards just loving each other.
Speaker 1:That makes total sense. So players have to be mentally tough to play for you. And you know I can remember my son coming home from practices his freshman year with the I don't know. I told my wife it's the welcome to high school baseball. look, And without a doubt, there's no doubt in my mind he became a better player, just getting that one year being a chance to play for you. And how do we get both the players and their parents to understand that when you, when you coach them hard, it's not necessarily a personal attack, It's just you're just trying to make them a better baseball player and, the most important thing, a better person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know, here we are in 2023. We just came off of a pandemic. We're starting to roll in all this research on just what social media and technology and these phones are doing to young people. The research is out there, you know, in terms of where we're at mental health wise, and I think the key because everything ebbs and flows to the good The key is that we must come back together in the betterment of our youth. And so, as you know because you and I have talked about it many times and kind of got this from other people like John Wooden There's a triangle of success that I believe players have to be players or students have to be students, coaches have to be the coaches and the parents have to be the parents, and never can we allow ourselves to enter into one of the other parts of the triangle. So never would I go to one of my kids and tell them their parents were wrong in how they were parenting. The thing I would always say is look, your parent loves you more than anything. We are not going to sit here and talk about what they do, right or wrong, and I think we have got to get back to where we are all working together. Now, in that same, what some people would call crazy, i'd have about 1 or 2 conversations every 2 or 3 years with parents to say, look, you are not entering into my part of the triangle, i can guarantee you that right now. So it needs to stop. But again, what it comes down to, parents love their kids, so they do want what's in their kids best interest And we just got to come together to know that, hey, you, let me do the coaching then. But I definitely think it will ebb and flow that way because, let's face it, the last 3 years this is not working for our youth.
Speaker 1:Well, how important is to get the players and the parents to buy in when you've taken over 3 programs? How important is it to get them to totally accept what you're doing and be a supporter of what you're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know, like, for you and I, who have now been in this so long, the first thing I think you have to realize is none of this has to do with any one of us. Like, if you just would think about you know you're growing up on the river and some of the great lessons and people that you learned from you know I was lucky enough at the age of 5 to have my first baseball coach, be who T Berry, who has just turned into a amateur baseball legend in central Ohio, and you know. And then I had Art Signori and Dave Koblenz and Fred Nassar and Bill Killian and Bill Ackerman and Ron Golden to learn from with just the Columbus League. And you know I can remember that when I transferred to the sales in my junior year, i was probably about the 13th best player at Brookhaven and come to the sales and don't even know if I'm going to be able to play on that team. But maybe you know one of the greatest coaches I ever got a chance to play for, bill Killian, who knew very little baseball but knew how to train you to run through a wall, and you know it was a great education. With my eyes wide open. I didn't even know if I was going to make the team. And you know he was like you're starting every game and batting in the four hole, which just did nothing but let a fire of confidence under me because I was, to me, an average player. And so I then go and get a chance to play in a high estate and play for Dick Finn and Joe Carbone and Jim Doherty was an assistant there who ends up being a central Ohio legend And you know every single one of these put some information and lessons on you And then all you do is follow it. So you know, for me to take over for a Bill Killian and a Greg Wolfe at the sales you and I have talked about this. It was interesting that in my three stops I went from four out of 10 talent at the sales to six out of 10 talent at CYOTA to eight out of 10 talent at Orange, and the more talent you have, a little bit tougher it can be to maintain that when you're dealing with a bunch of fours they'll listen to you and run through a wall for you. So it has been interesting, but the hope would be just like with every teacher that we have in buildings now the decisions they make. We got into this profession to impact young people's lives, trying to do it in the best interest of kids. Quick questioning and blaming, and just come together and join for the betterment of kids And you know it all works out. And then, of course, you just pray for forgiveness for the ones that you know you went too far or you negatively impacted, which you know are out there, and at this point you just kind of meditate and pray for forgiveness on that. But we're always just trying to do what's in kids best interest.
Speaker 1:Well, of the three schools you coached at St Francis to sales, which was 85 to 95,. You're at Dublin, cyota 96 to 06, i believe, and you finished up at Olin 10, orange in 2018. You threw the numbers out there, but which was the toughest, to be the most successful at?
Speaker 2:Oh, i would say probably Orange. Now I'll tell you why I say this and you will probably appreciate it, because we were friends and around at the time. But I had Kyle Sherman and Joey McDaniel invite me to play in Ciotas golf outing And so thinking because I'm getting old that I needed to go back and review just what years they played and how we did, i go downstairs and pull out the scrapbooks from underneath Cole's bed that's been stored there for 15 years And I had no idea the success that we had at Ciotas. I ended up walking up there with them and I go hey, you guys were really, really good. Did you know that? Like I did not realize that like 8 out of 10 years we were in the district finals, you know, at Ciotas. So it was one of those things where you know what we built at Ciotas was special, but it was almost like walking dream. I didn't even realize just what it accomplished. So you know, then you get out of it. I got out in 2006 because My oldest was 7 and 6 and I wanted to raise my kids And then, you know, circumstances brought me back in. But I would say getting back in after 5 or 6 years off Was definitely a bit of a challenge, and so probably the hardest part was at orange, and part of that might have just been because of the talent level. Chuck Rockwell was my kept my book at Ciotas and a great, great friend who is now past, but He comes over the first week of conditioning. He comes over and we put him in a wheelchair and wheel him in And he is like what is this? A college team instead of a high school? I mean, we probably that first year at Orange averaged like 6, 1 and I'm like I have no idea where these athletes came from. But And of course you know, the 2012 team was just Possibly the best team that I ever coached great kids and just incredible talent. So Orange was definitely a challenge. And then the other thing is, you know, as you're getting older, you know it just keeps gets harder and harder to keep that fire, which Really makes you appreciate a guy like a Don Thorpe who literally was doing it when I played and then still doing it after I left. So it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely I. It was nice to see coach Thorpe greeting the players. I don't know if you saw the picture of You know he's since retired, but Lakewood One of the district and they came back and the team was riding on the fire truck and He came out to greet him and and that was just really special to see something like that from from coach Thorpe.
Speaker 2:Yes, and he. I ended up Lakewood and Orange played a game, so I ended up Charting a game against them, and it won't surprise anybody that the highest percentage of kids who hit the ball and ran that I charted this whole past season where I probably charted Some 20 high school games was still Lakewood. and you know, that's the influence that somebody like a Don Thorpe can have on them.
Speaker 1:Yes, without a doubt, there he was one of the pride all time, all time great coaches in the country, not just Ohio. Absolutely Well, like every high school coach, you were more than just X's and O's. You wanted your players to make great choices and be prepared for life after high school. Talk about how you handle that that part of the Being being their high school coach.
Speaker 2:Well, and again, i think you know, the 1st thing you have to realize is it really is never about us individually, it's about us as a collective full. The way that I stumbled upon that was because, as I was saying, at the age of 22, coaching my 1st high school team, i find this out and I selfishly think, if I could just get them to make healthier choices, we could win more games. And so it started out completely selfish. But what I learned was what nobody had ever taught me exactly what do drugs and alcohol do to the pre maturation adolescent? And so, with that, that kind of evolved into a thing that I called a, a s academics, athletic, social, and people would joke. 2 days ago I was out and somebody walked by and joked you're probably going to 0 to 10. Me, aren't you? And I was like, well, you know actually, yes, about to, but So what? what I would do what? 1 of the greatest things I found is that We are all able to very accurately self assess. Now, sometimes you got to grant permission to try to not run a con on me, but basically, when you ask young people To assess where they're at, and what I always say is 10 is God, 0 is dead and 5 is average. We are not either the 2 extremes and ask them. So the 1st thing was academically, and all we asked him is the best version of themselves. If you've got learning disabilities or you struggle, just be the best version of yourself, and that's an 8. So it's all about your effort. And then, of course, you go to athletic, and The older I got, i found that you need this with young people. So you're speaking the same language. You know, i remember 1 time This would have been in 2016,. You know, i said to a kid I go, ok, athletically, what do you think you are? And he said I'm a 6 and I go, listen. I got you at a 5. I go 5 and 6 is close enough. We're speaking the same language. Quit rolling your eyes at me. That's not OK. We can't win with you at a 6. We need you at an 8. And it was like you know. So what I found that it was was it was a good way To just open up the channels of communication that you know. Hey, we're speaking the same language. 5, 6 is not OK. And then, of course, the last one was socially, which, whether it be myself back in 1979. Or it be kids in 2020. We do not want to be making the poor choices. We want to tell those that love us and cares about us about those choices And we want them to say no, you know, i was as young and dumb as they get And so I know, you know that's what we, what we want. So socially, even with that score, you know kids were able to tell me And I would always laugh when I would get the kid that would say or 5 academically, 8 athletically and 5 socially. And it's like you're not an 8 athletically if you're a 5 academically and a 5 socially. You know, once you start reaching for your potential, you do it in all aspects of your life. You do it a little bit better for the things you're passionate about, but you learn how to be a champion in all aspects. So that was definitely an important part of all three programs.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this, excuse me What would be the best advice you would give a high school player Wanting to play college baseball, considering they now have to compete Not just with the best high school players from all over, but now they got to compete with the transfer portal?
Speaker 2:Well, and probably why one of the most Rewarding experiences of my educational career Was the 4 years when Cole played in college And the reason was I could just sit out there with the book in center field And I got to watch him, you know, make his 120 or whatever it was. Starts And Cole was a very average high school baseball player who played to his potential and to watch it actually Work. Then, at the college level, where I can remember coach Christ, who he absolutely loved at capital, came up to him in the fall and said I heard you were nothing but a dirtbag player. I didn't know. You actually had some ability And it was good to watch that. The effort and the being the best version of yourself does still work and maybe work even better at the college level, because there are so many poor choices in which people are destroying themselves. So I just had this conversation with my sister son Nathan Hickey, who played it, just finished his career at the sales, and I said to him you're going on to Taylor University Now. I got news for you. You are going to see great players at Taylor And you're also going to see a culture that makes healthy choices. I said How are you going to compete? He goes. I'm kind of worried about that myself. And we talked about. I said here's a simple way I go. When you hit the baseball, can you run as fast as you can? Oh, yeah, yeah, can you do it every time? Yeah, yeah, i go, then do it. Why didn't you do it in high school? Well, i mean a lot of times, and it doesn't matter if it's 2023 or if it's 1991. We can all do things to the best of our ability. We just got to make a choice that it's going to happen. So, maybe one of the most positive things of this year. I turned on the TV last night And was watching the regionals and watching Kentucky against Indiana And I saw six ground balls in the 15 minutes and every single guy ran down to 1st as hard as they could And 3 of those were the 2nd base. And you know at the high school level now whether it's the pandemic or the phones, i would say ground balls the 2nd base Maybe get ran out 1 out of 6, 0 out of 6 times, and that is something that every single person can control. We can't control how much talent we have, but we can control how much effort we give.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a big thing that a lot of the high school kids you're trying to get them to understand that And you know they battle the. You know the choices in the summertime when you're playing travel, when it's sometimes the accountability is not quite where it needs to be, and you know how do you address the kid that has a great high school season And then they go into the travel ball season where it's a lot more relaxed. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Well, i think The most important thing is with no judgment, but also with some love. So I can remember a great player that we had at Orange that came from the sales, cj Stabline. I remember the first summer out. He had had a pretty good year for us the first year and he wanted to make the next step. He wanted to go to the next level. I said to him I said you're going to go play for the Ohio Elite. I'm going to tell you right now you're not going to understand this, but if your coach doesn't call me within the next three weeks and tell me it is ridiculous how hard he is playing for us, i go. Then you're not going to take the next step. You're not going to be any better next year than you are this year. But if you go to your Ohio Elite team and they all start making fun of you because you run out every ground ball and you're backing up every base and you're playing like a madman, if you're making fun of you and your coach calls me, then I'll know you're ready to take the step. And sure enough, i was about two weeks in and this guy gives me a text and he's just like hey, i just wanted to let you know I've never seen a kid play harder than CJ did, and of course he ended up setting the school record for stolen bases for us, because he just became an absolute madman in terms of his effort. So I think it's an individual choice that, hey, if you don't make it, i'm still going to love you, i'm just never going to play you. But if you want to make that choice, you too then can walk away from every game. I mean, you think about it and close. Four years they did not win a whole lot of ball games, but he walked away with his head high and loved the experience, and so I appreciate Coach Grice and Coach Manahan for the experience that he had.
Speaker 1:And ultimately that's all you ever want for your son or for any player.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you think about this Silly game of baseball really doesn't matter. I've said this for now, going on 40 years in my educational career. It's crazy that for a silly game of baseball they'll let me do anything I want to do to get kids to be the best of their ability. Why will they not allow me to do that in the classroom, where it really matters?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no doubt there.
Speaker 2:Now the sales they did, by the way.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, the role being a high school coach is so much more than coaching. You have to get the administration to really support you as a coach And when it comes to the sports that you know, i noticed just a trend here in Central Ohio where there's a lot of really great coaches that are either walking away from the game or parents are getting the hold of the right board member or talking to the athletic director and kind of get pushing them out. And you know, i just heard where Tom held the coach at Defiance. He stepped away after a phenomenal career And you know he mentioned, you know, 11 months of the year that you're committed to coaching high school baseball here in Ohio. Do you see it getting better, or is this going to continue to be the trend where we're going to lose a lot of great coaches?
Speaker 2:Well, i think we are definitely at a critical time period where we do need to talk about and address this. I'm sitting here and on my table I've got an article from Jake Ferrer who says Jake's, take an open letter to those parents of high school athletes. You know, i don't think it does us any good as educators to point to either the athletes or the parents corner. I think we have got to look in now. As parents, i now do feel as if I have to look at my own parenting, but as educators, i think we have to look at it. In the last three years, i read a piece of data that said that 62% of educators are thinking about getting out Now. I would guarantee you and you and I were there three or four years ago that would have been less than 10%. What is going on? And personally, i put my thumb on the fact that you know I just talked with Mark Crabtree, the former head football coach at Kauffman, about this on Sunday at church. You know we used to screw up all the time when we were young and our administrators backed us because they knew, even though they were young and dumb, it was in the best interest of young people where we were trying to go. Now I don't screw up anymore and I get blamed for everything And that is where we're at Now. You can say part of it is the perfect storm of the pandemic and social media, But the thing that we have to realize it is our youth that are losing because of this. Does it make parenting harder? Yes, does it make parenting harder? Yes, does it make teaching harder? Yes, but the ones who are losing the most are our young people, who are not getting the guidance that they need to make it through these difficult adolescent years. So it has got to change And, from a teaching standpoint, we have to have administrations supporting our teachers And we got to have teachers coming together and, of course, we include the parents in the decisions when it is the parenting. So I've just started volunteering for a company called Cybersafelyai that they got ahold of me six months ago because they had heard about the drug alcohol program I started at to sales, which was centered on with punishing social ills and as educational. We should educate first, assess second and treat, never take on the role of parent. And so what this company wants to do is put the power in the parenting, in the parents corner where it what it does is filters their social media in attempt not to get kids in trouble, but to just make them healthier young adults. And so, anyway, you have to believe that that is where things will ebb and flow, because that's how life is.
Speaker 1:Well, i want to switch gears a little bit here. Yeah, and you know it's been a while since we had this conversation, but I you want to. You grew up with Paul O'Neill, who, cincinnati, read New York Yankee. You know great, yes, what tell to the listeners who you know? I get listeners from all over that respond to the to the podcast and tell tell me your best, best Paul O'Neill story.
Speaker 2:Well, so probably the one, and he probably wouldn't love me telling it. But first of all, as pretty well documented, what an incredible family he comes from. His mother I've got a good friend of mine by the name of Tom Vargo, former athletic director at Jonathan Alder, who still volunteers in works where his mother is living right now and has become a good friend to her. It's just because she's such an incredible woman. And, of course, his father was legendary. But Paul was maybe one of the greatest athletes any of us have ever seen, but he loved basketball and he did not love baseball. So maybe it was because he was the youngest and he was rebelling a little bit. But although in that house everyone got to play the sport they love the diversity in the sports and then, of course, even having his sister, who was an award winning writer. But we in those days had 1011 people on a baseball team And we would quite often have to ride our bikes down Cook Road and go to his house and beg him to show up because otherwise we were going to forfeit. So you know, most people don't know. He ended up being all of higher in three different sports And so I am named a head coach at a very early age and one day I'm over at Grand Slam with Coach Fishball and here Paul comes walking in. So you know, the first thing I say to him is hey, you want to go out drinking tonight? He goes you're not gonna believe this. I don't do that anymore. All I do is work out now And I'm like what are you talking about? You hate baseball And he goes I hated baseball as a game. I now have it as a career and a chance to make a living for Neville and I, and he goes. Now all I do is work out. So when I look back, it was funny. We were on a couple teams together where I would start over him, even though I had about half of his talent, and so doesn't surprise me at all. Now, the thing that I got to say because I'm a big red machine fan was the thing I'm the most proud of him and never got a chance to tell him this is to watch the adjustments he made in New York And in my opinion he's now a Hall of Famer because of the numbers he put up in New York. But it was just so much fun just to watch him play and enjoy. You know his fire and his passion. My mom used to always say the way he is on the field, off the field he's a completely different, nicest kid She's ever met off the field. But you know, it comes honestly because it was such an incredible family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i. you know a lot of people probably remember Paul and Neil for kicking the baseball in right field, and you know he even did that well, which was amazing.
Speaker 2:Well he. So he played quarterback for a team My dad coached in the ninth grade and then he didn't play. But he goes out his senior year and says, hey, i'll kick for you guys, and he ends up making all Ohio who has a kicker in football, even though he never showed up at practice, he just showed up on Friday nights and you know probably set school records for punting and kicking off And I mean he was just such an amazing athlete And again I'm going to say, such an incredible good person.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, if you could make a change to high school baseball? you've coached it, you've played it, you coached it And now you've had the chance to sit in the stands and watch it. What would be a change that you'd like to see in high school baseball?
Speaker 2:Well, okay, so let's go. Let's go to a positive with that, because I do truly believe. You know, god God's all of this, And it is going to ebb and flow back. But let's think about this When you and I were playing. So, for instance, in 1982, the baseball team I was on at Ohio State makes it to a super regional Now, out of nowhere, and it was partially because of just some incredible central Ohio names that decided we're going to be successful. At Ohio State, we had 2 guys who threw between 80 and 85. Now I would round that time. I would sit and listen to the likes of Art's Ignorey or Dave Koblen's talk And Vince Chickarello then starts coaching at the sales and would tell stories about how, you know, west against West Stone would be 1 to nothing, because there'd be 2 guys, though, and 90. So think about how it ebbed and flowed in the 60s and 70s guys through hard. Then they started saying we remember this, don't let your kid pitch till high school. Well, if you don't pitch, we all got to high school, and we were terrible. We couldn't even throw 80 miles an hour. Now, all of a sudden, and where it starts, maybe it's, you know, with house and maybe it's with defiance, but this overthrowing that has gone on Now, you know, it seems like everybody throws over 90, and look in the major leagues Now, how many guys can throw over 100? So the whole development of arms has ebbed and flowed. If you don't throw, you're no good, but you're healthy. If you overthrow, you throw harder, but of course there's going to be physical breakdown. So it is just an ebbed flow that has to happen. But that gets to the point. On the other side, we have begun to accept, in my opinion, bad baseball and it will change back. I mean so if I go chart a game and only a third of the kids hit the ball and run in our day you had to run or your friends would get on you It will ebbed, flow back. But right now the game just is not being played well enough. And I was talking to a parent the first time I got to see Liberty play and I was talking to a parent who I said I've heard good things about the way you guys play And he goes well. You know, with what you're saying, we did win a game when, with a guy at third and two outs, the kid gets pulled off the bag And by the time his foot comes off and he kind of rotates back and his foot goes back on. We were safe and we score the only run of the game. Well, when pitching gets really good, then things like base running and bunning and everything else is going to have to follow up, or otherwise you're not going to win many games. So it'll ebbed flow back. But I am, you know, this year, being back watching high school baseball, i am a little bit surprised about how little effort in games I do see. And again, it'll ebbed flow back and you know we go from there.
Speaker 1:Have you, have you talked to coach Marker and, as he asked for advice, or have you given any advice? with their upcoming, i believe, thursday? they're in the state semi final.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when we were teaching together we would get to talk literally at least four days a week. And this year, with me moving to Berlin, that is one of the big things I miss. Now. We get to talk about a lot of things, but one thing that a lot of people might not know about coach Marker. He is sort of like me and that he is far more in teaching than he is into baseball. So we do talk about some things, but I also try not to talk to him about that because I'm also a parent in his program. So when it comes to baseball stuff, honestly, my assistant in golf, jeremy Ortman, is also his assistant in baseball And so, like this year, i ended up internally scouting for three high school teams And then, you know, this is about the time when we'll get together and talk about what I've seen, but at this point, no, coach Marker and I don't talk much about baseball. Now, sunday morning at 630, he was texting to say, are you up? because he was starting to plan out what a camp week with the final four looks like. So those sort of things, but not much on the baseball. And we talk more about math, geek type of stuff. He sends me a math problem about once a week.
Speaker 1:There you go. Well, I like to finish up the podcast with rapid fire. I like to throw out just some really strange questions and kind of get your opinion on them, Love it? My first question, which is my favorite question do you hate losing or love winning?
Speaker 2:So now that is a good one. And again, this is where you know the ego comes in. I know I've told you and I've told a lot of people, i absolutely love teaching. I did not love coaching baseball. Now I do know that I loved winning and that was an ego thing. But when I first got out in 2006, and I know you and I have talked about this I would come home and a loss would literally wreck my house for 48 hours. And when I got out I realized why am I hurting the people I love most around me for 48 hours over something that nobody else really cares about And I know there are people who do, but not the way that a coach does. And even then the watching four years of college baseball you know college baseball begins to put it in the proper perspective. I mean, losing was not as painful to watch for like Cole and his teammates, and all you'd have to do is talk to them after and they'd just be happy if you were taking the Popeye to get a few chicken sandwiches in them, and it really put it in proper perspective. So some of that was probably good learning in terms of is this really as important as you're making it, but definitely loved winning and hated losing.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, you know it's funny. You mentioned that because my son Jake, when he played at Ohio Dominican his first year and they had a loss, and I mean I was like it bothered me, i guess, and I asked, i said so what did the coach have to say? He said, hey, we got another game tomorrow, guys, let's just get ready for that. And I was like wow. And I to me, i was like you, a loss would destroy me when I was coaching. So it was definitely an eye opener for me And I think coach Antonitas and coach Hall over to Ohio Dominican they do it the right way And you know I learned absolutely. Absolutely Well. you were a pitcher And would you rather have if you were managing an MLB team. would you rather have Greg Maddox and Pedro Martinez on your staff, or Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson?
Speaker 2:Okay, so a really good one, because I was a terrible pitcher who, until playing in the MSBL, learn that, and you know, as a coach, if you're not throwing strikes and batting practice, your team isn't getting better. So you quickly learn how to be a pitcher, and so I now have a great appreciation for the guys who carve you up with 80 mile an hour stuff. However, when I find myself out scouting, the only thing I fear is somebody who can throw the ball by you. If I, if I'm. Maybe the greatest surgeon pitcher that I had in my career was Johnny Savage at Siotta, and I never realized how great he was until the regionals, when you've got to take a week off. So I would have to umpire behind him and just watch the way he carved up hitters, and I can remember saying to Joe Wilkins is he like this always? he goes always, and I was like. And then, of course, you know, the smartest, best pitcher I ever had was Tyler Brown, and you know he knew three times as much pitching as I did and twice as much as any pitching coach that I'd ever seen. So I still, though, fear the guy who can throw it by you. You give me a guy who just cars, and I'm going to find a way to get on. So that's a tough one to answer And there you go.
Speaker 1:We'll show how you, tony, go down as the greatest MLB player, and why.
Speaker 2:So my youngest loves the hit leader that came over. So I do think that there is a very good chance that that dual athlete part of it will be, but I don't think anybody is ever going to replace Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron as the greatest. I mean, you just think about it When they did it, how they did it, and I just don't think I am not a fan of Major League Baseball because of the whole sterile thing. So it's definitely a question that would be tough for me. As a matter of fact, i will not watch Major League Baseball. I did start watching a little because somebody told me you'd like the way the Indians play, and I must admit when I turn them on it's impressive the way they play. But those are the two names that for me, and then, of course, my all-time greatest idol was Johnny Bench. So it's hard for me to answer about today's, but I do know what he's doing as a dual player is amazing.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you mentioned some of those old-time players and they didn't have the elbow guards, the shin guards, the sliding gloves and the batting gloves. They just went out and grabbed a bat and just swung it and were very, very good at what they did.
Speaker 2:And they had to face.
Speaker 1:Bob Gibson Yeah, exactly, and you were allowed to really throw it guys back in. You weren't injected the way you are nowadays. Absolutely Okay, if you had to win one game, what MLB pitcher and position player would you want to have in your lineup from all of baseball throughout the years?
Speaker 2:Now that would be Nolan Ryan. So you know, now, part of that is because I'm also a card collector and I've got a couple of cards of his that are worth a lot of money, but I do think he is the greatest pitcher of all time. I mean, you know, just to watch him it was absolutely amazing the way he battled the fire he had and how hard he threw at a time when, you know, nobody threw the ball like that.
Speaker 1:Now, did you get a chance to see his documentary? No, it's called Facing Nolan. If you get a chance to watch that, it's unreal that the type of player he was. It'll blow your mind. It's summer, so I will watch it. Yeah, he had. I think he has 62 MLB records and he never won a Cy Young, which blows my mind.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Well then, the one that I quote the most, even though I never got to watch him, was I would always hear stories about Whitey Ford and the way that there would only be five cleat marks in the mound because he was so precise, and you already brought up. I mean, we got a chance to live through Maddox, which pretty amazing stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes, Should the state championship be a three game series? In Ohio it's one and done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm going to say no to that only from the standpoint that, to me again, state championships are miracles. So, like, if you even think about you know, when we were looking at being there in 2012, and I've got maybe the finest team that I've ever had and Chris Valentine is the pitching coach and he goes, you know, hey, we got one or two guys who could be Division I and Mollers roster has 14. Here's what we've learned in central Ohio. In that time, though, you can still win because it's baseball. So, like this year, watching Orange and Coach Marker, i got to see Moller, i got to see Ignatius and those two teams are loaded with talent, but it is still baseball and it can happen. So in 1979, we were picked fourth in the CCL out of five teams and we won the state championship And there was just all sorts of miracles, because, you know, i'm our MVP and I'm not that good, especially coming over from Brookhaven. So I do believe that the beauty of baseball is that one game can happen. So it also is what makes the tournament so absolutely exciting. And even when I go back to and it's always about the players, it's never about the coach, but I was shocked at what we accomplished at Sciota, because we really were a bunch of average to slightly above average talent who would just do everything they were told and run through a wall, which you know, and then to go back and read that they made you know eight district championships. I was actually amazed, and meant it, when I said to Kyle and Joey, you guys were really really good, did you? Yeah, we knew that coach. I was like I don't think I did when we were running that run. So I like it the way it is. Yes.
Speaker 1:Well, coach, I can't thank you enough for taking the time. I know it's the summer, but still you took time to be on the Athlete One podcast And you're someone I've wanted to get on for a long time now And it's been incredible And I think a lot of people will benefit from listening to this And I, you know, thanks a ton for joining me here on the Athlete One podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, you could probably tell how glad I was to see you again at Grove City, So we're going to have to get breakfast soon.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, let me know and I'll be there. All you got to do is just tell me when. Sounds good, all right. Well, thanks again, coach, and Phil Callahan and HoloFam coach here in central Ohio. If you know somebody that would like to be a guest on the show, go to our website And that's athleteonenet. You can find all of our episodes from season one. Register to be a guest and give us some feedback, click the reviews button and leave us a review and rate the show. That's athleteonenet And, as always, thanks for listening to the athlete one podcast.
